Fall 2023 Dodgeball Massapequa Monday Nights

Fall 2023 Dodgeball Massapequa Monday Nights

Key Details

Season
Fall 2023 Dodgeball
Format
League
Game Day(s)
Monday
Running
September 11th to October 23rd
7 Weeks
Starting
8:00pm - 10:00pm
Team Size
6 - 10 Players;
2 Girls Required
Rosters Due By
September 1st
Rosters Locked On
September 15th
Location
LI Sports Dome
5600 Old Sunrise Hwy
Massapequa, 11758
Max Teams
12
Post Game Bar
Dark Horse

Summary

Each week we will be playing 4 10 minute games. Throughout the regular season, you will play every team 3 times. Week 7 will be playoffs.

Theme Week starts October 2nd. Theme week is a massive competition between all teams in LI-Kick. This season's theme is "Team Theme" which means your team can pick any theme you choose. 

Post Game: Dark Horse Tavern (1029 Park Blvd, Massapequa Park). This is a Bar Champs League!

Link to this season's photos

Connect with Us

Whether your looking to land on a team or just want to meet some of your future league mates our sport specific Facebook Groups are a great way to get connected to our LI Kick community before your league begins.

LI Sports Dome
LI Sports Dome

Teams

Aaron Dodgers
Aaron Dodgers
Buncha Squids
Buncha Squids
Deli Dodgeball
Deli Dodgeball
Dodgert Horry
Dodgert Horry
Dodging to the Max
Dodging to the Max
HE IS RISEN
HE IS RISEN
Jersey Meat Hooks
Jersey Meat Hooks
Juicy Peaches
Juicy Peaches
Pink Panthers
Pink Panthers
The Honey Pack
The Honey Pack

Standings

Rank Team Games Played Wins Losses Draws For Against Diff Bar Points Head Count ELO ELO Initial
1. Jersey Meat Hooks 8 8 0 0 92 31 61 100 130 1589 1400
2. Buncha Squids 8 5 2 1 62 32 30 50 100 1454 1384
3. HE IS RISEN 8 5 2 1 50 26 24 50 40 1501 1457
4. Dodging to the Max 8 5 3 0 76 29 47 175 90 1435 1400
5. Juicy Peaches 8 4 4 0 51 43 8 150 130 1414 1434
6. The Honey Pack 8 4 4 0 37 43 -6 200 110 1303 1221
7. Aaron Dodgers 8 4 4 0 34 50 -16 50 70 1400 1400
8. Deli Dodgeball 8 2 6 0 25 60 -35 0 30 1311 1400
9. Dodgert Horry 8 1 6 1 43 59 -16 50 130 1303 1400
10. Pink Panthers 8 0 7 1 15 112 -97 0 60 1252 1400

Schedule

Week 1 September 11th
Court Time
Court 1 8:10PM HE IS RISEN 10 +10 HC
Prev ELO: 1457 Cur ELO: 1482 +25
Player
Deli Dodgeball 2 +30 HC
Prev ELO: 1400 Cur ELO: 1375 -25
Player
Court 2 8:10PM The Honey Pack 4 +60 HC
Prev ELO: 1221 Cur ELO: 1205 -16
Player
Buncha Squids 8 +30 HC
Prev ELO: 1384 Cur ELO: 1400 +16
Player
Court 1 8:20PM Juicy Peaches 5 +60 HC
Prev ELO: 1434 Cur ELO: 1402 -32
Player
Jersey Meat Hooks 15 +70 HC
Prev ELO: 1400 Cur ELO: 1432 +32
Player
Court 2 8:20PM Dodging to the Max 27 +30 HC
Prev ELO: 1400 Cur ELO: 1430 +30
Player
Pink Panthers 1 +40 HC
Prev ELO: 1400 Cur ELO: 1370 -30
Player
Court 1 8:30PM Dodgert Horry 3 +50 HC
Prev ELO: 1400 Cur ELO: 1370 -30
Player
Aaron Dodgers 7 +30 HC
Prev ELO: 1400 Cur ELO: 1430 +30
Player
Court 2 8:30PM HE IS RISEN 6
Buncha Squids 6
Court 1 8:40PM The Honey Pack 5
Prev ELO: 1205 Cur ELO: 1248 +43
Player
Deli Dodgeball 0
Prev ELO: 1375 Cur ELO: 1332 -43
Player
Court 2 8:40PM Juicy Peaches 12
Prev ELO: 1402 Cur ELO: 1434 +32
Player
Aaron Dodgers 3
Prev ELO: 1430 Cur ELO: 1398 -32
Player
Court 1 9:00PM Jersey Meat Hooks 26
Prev ELO: 1432 Cur ELO: 1456 +24
Player
Pink Panthers 0
Prev ELO: 1370 Cur ELO: 1346 -24
Player
Court 2 9:00PM Dodging to the Max 10
Prev ELO: 1430 Cur ELO: 1454 +24
Player
Dodgert Horry 3
Prev ELO: 1370 Cur ELO: 1346 -24
Player
Court 1 9:10PM Buncha Squids 12
Prev ELO: 1418 Cur ELO: 1440 +22
Player
Deli Dodgeball 2
Prev ELO: 1332 Cur ELO: 1310 -22
Player
Court 2 9:10PM HE IS RISEN 7
Prev ELO: 1500 Cur ELO: 1521 +21
Player
Aaron Dodgers 0
Prev ELO: 1398 Cur ELO: 1377 -21
Player
Court 1 9:20PM Juicy Peaches 4
Prev ELO: 1434 Cur ELO: 1390 -44
Player
The Honey Pack 5
Prev ELO: 1248 Cur ELO: 1292 +44
Player
Court 2 9:20PM Jersey Meat Hooks 7
Prev ELO: 1456 Cur ELO: 1485 +29
Player
Dodging to the Max 6
Prev ELO: 1454 Cur ELO: 1425 -29
Player
Court 1 9:30PM Pink Panthers 4
Dodgert Horry 4
Court 2 9:30PM Buncha Squids 2
Prev ELO: 1440 Cur ELO: 1405 -35
Player
Aaron Dodgers 4
Prev ELO: 1377 Cur ELO: 1412 +35
Player
Court 1 8:50PM Deli Dodgeball 2
Prev ELO: 1310 Cur ELO: 1290 -20
Player
Dodging to the Max 12
Prev ELO: 1425 Cur ELO: 1445 +20
Player
Court 2 8:50PM HE IS RISEN 1
Prev ELO: 1521 Cur ELO: 1533 +12
Player
The Honey Pack 0
Prev ELO: 1292 Cur ELO: 1280 -12
Player
Court 1 9:40PM Juicy Peaches 15
Prev ELO: 1390 Cur ELO: 1417 +27
Player
Pink Panthers 2
Prev ELO: 1361 Cur ELO: 1334 -27
Player
Court 2 9:40PM Jersey Meat Hooks 7
Prev ELO: 1485 Cur ELO: 1504 +19
Player
Dodgert Horry 5
Prev ELO: 1361 Cur ELO: 1342 -19
Player
Week 2 September 18th
Court Time
Court 1 8:10PM Deli Dodgeball 0
Prev ELO: 1290 Cur ELO: 1277 -13
Player
Jersey Meat Hooks 7 +100BPs +60 HC
Prev ELO: 1504 Cur ELO: 1517 +13
Player
Court 2 8:10PM Aaron Dodgers 9 +50BPs +40 HC
Prev ELO: 1412 Cur ELO: 1435 +23
Player
Pink Panthers 4 +20 HC
Prev ELO: 1334 Cur ELO: 1311 -23
Player
Court 1 8:20PM HE IS RISEN 5 +50BPs +30 HC
Prev ELO: 1533 Cur ELO: 1494 -39
Player
Juicy Peaches 6 +150BPs +70 HC
Prev ELO: 1417 Cur ELO: 1456 +39
Player
Court 2 8:20PM Buncha Squids 11 +50BPs +70 HC
Prev ELO: 1405 Cur ELO: 1429 +24
Player
Dodgert Horry 6 + 50BPs +80 HC
Prev ELO: 1342 Cur ELO: 1318 -24
Player
Court 1 8:30PM The Honey Pack 7 +200BPs +50 HC
Prev ELO: 1280 Cur ELO: 1323 +43
Player
Dodging to the Max 6 + 175BPs +60 HC
Prev ELO: 1445 Cur ELO: 1402 -43
Player
Court 2 8:30PM Aaron Dodgers 2
Prev ELO: 1435 Cur ELO: 1412 -23
Player
Jersey Meat Hooks 10
Prev ELO: 1517 Cur ELO: 1540 +23
Player
Court 1 8:40PM Deli Dodgeball 13
Prev ELO: 1277 Cur ELO: 1309 +32
Player
Pink Panthers 2
Prev ELO: 1311 Cur ELO: 1279 -32
Player
Court 2 8:40PM Juicy Peaches 0
Prev ELO: 1456 Cur ELO: 1424 -32
Player
Buncha Squids 8
Prev ELO: 1429 Cur ELO: 1461 +32
Player
Court 1 9:00PM HE IS RISEN 5
Prev ELO: 1494 Cur ELO: 1516 +22
Player
Dodging to the Max 0
Prev ELO: 1402 Cur ELO: 1380 -22
Player
Court 2 9:00PM Dodgert Horry 9
Prev ELO: 1318 Cur ELO: 1289 -29
Player
The Honey Pack 10
Prev ELO: 1323 Cur ELO: 1352 +29
Player
Court 1 9:10PM Aaron Dodgers 1
Prev ELO: 1412 Cur ELO: 1374 -38
Player
Deli Dodgeball 6
Prev ELO: 1309 Cur ELO: 1347 +38
Player
Court 2 9:10PM Pink Panthers 0
Prev ELO: 1279 Cur ELO: 1264 -15
Player
Buncha Squids 7
Prev ELO: 1461 Cur ELO: 1476 +15
Player
Court 1 9:20PM Jersey Meat Hooks 10
Prev ELO: 1540 Cur ELO: 1567 +27
Player
HE IS RISEN 5
Prev ELO: 1516 Cur ELO: 1489 -27
Player
Court 2 9:20PM Juicy Peaches 7
Prev ELO: 1424 Cur ELO: 1447 +23
Player
The Honey Pack 0
Prev ELO: 1352 Cur ELO: 1329 -23
Player
Court 1 9:30PM Dodging to the Max 10
Prev ELO: 1380 Cur ELO: 1402 +22
Player
Dodgert Horry 2
Prev ELO: 1289 Cur ELO: 1267 -22
Player
Court 2 9:30PM Buncha Squids 8
Prev ELO: 1476 Cur ELO: 1454 -22
Player
Jersey Meat Hooks 10
Prev ELO: 1567 Cur ELO: 1589 +22
Player
Court 1 8:50PM Pink Panthers 2
Prev ELO: 1264 Cur ELO: 1252 -12
Player
HE IS RISEN 11
Prev ELO: 1489 Cur ELO: 1501 +12
Player
Court 2 8:50PM Aaron Dodgers 8
Prev ELO: 1374 Cur ELO: 1400 +26
Player
The Honey Pack 6
Prev ELO: 1329 Cur ELO: 1303 -26
Player
Court 1 9:40PM Juicy Peaches 2
Prev ELO: 1447 Cur ELO: 1414 -33
Player
Dodging to the Max 5
Prev ELO: 1402 Cur ELO: 1435 +33
Player
Court 2 9:40PM Deli Dodgeball 0
Prev ELO: 1347 Cur ELO: 1311 -36
Player
Dodgert Horry 11
Prev ELO: 1267 Cur ELO: 1303 +36
Player
Week 3 September 25th
Court Time
Court 1 8:10PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:10PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:20PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:20PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:30PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:30PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:40PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:40PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:00PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:00PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:10PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:10PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:20PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:20PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:30PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:30PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:50PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:50PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:40PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:40PM TBA TBA
Week 4 October 2nd
Court Time
Court 1 8:10PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:10PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:20PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:20PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:30PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:30PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:40PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:40PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:00PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:00PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:10PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:10PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:20PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:20PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:30PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:30PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:50PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:50PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:40PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:40PM TBA TBA
Week 5 October 9th
Court Time
Court 1 8:10PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:10PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:20PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:20PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:30PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:30PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:40PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:40PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:00PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:00PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:10PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:10PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:20PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:20PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:30PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:30PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:50PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:50PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:40PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:40PM TBA TBA
Week 6 October 16th
Court Time
Court 1 8:10PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:10PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:20PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:20PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:30PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:30PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:40PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:40PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:00PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:00PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:10PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:10PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:20PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:20PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:30PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:30PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:50PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:50PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:40PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:40PM TBA TBA
Week 7 October 23rd
Court Time
Court 1 8:10PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:10PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:20PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:20PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:30PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:30PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:40PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:40PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:00PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:00PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:10PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:10PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:20PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:20PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:30PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:30PM TBA TBA
Court 1 8:50PM TBA TBA
Court 2 8:50PM TBA TBA
Court 1 9:40PM TBA TBA
Court 2 9:40PM TBA TBA

Rules

RULES

These Are the LI-Kick Dodgeball Rules. However they may not cover every situation. Unless otherwise specified in these unique situations we will follow USA Dodgeball Rules which can be found here USA Dodgeball - Rules.

Key Rule Changes/Most Confused Rules:

  • There are no momentum catches
  • All lines are hard lines stepping on a line(even a toe) will result in an out(Includes sidelines, backlines and center line) 
  • Every throw by the attacking team will reset burden count but if a defending team throws burden count does not reset.
  • Arguing with refs, not respecting calls will result in cards that can be given out at league director or coordinator discretion based on recommendations of referees. 
  • Games will not start with less then 30 seconds left on the play clock during the regular season

PLAYERS

  • Teams consist of 6 players per game. 
  • Legal Line-Up: There must be always at least 2 girls on the court 4M/2F to start a game (subject to change based on sign-ups and will be detailed in Week 1 email)
  • If a team cannot produce a legal line-up that team will be allowed to play short-handed (less than 6 on the court)
  • A female player can play in place of a male player but not a male player in place of a female.
  • During the regular season, subs are allowed in the case that players cannot play. For subs during the postseason contact the league director before the night of playoffs.
  • On a catch, the players come back in from the order in which they were out with the subs from the team being the first players in while following gender rules. 

MATCH-

  • All Teams will arrive at the same time and play 4- 10-minute games each night. To stay on time teams must line up as quickly as possible.
  • We will be rotating matchups each week so make sure you check your schedule weekly
  • Each game will be played with a 10-minute timer. You will be able to fit as many matches as possible within the 10 minutes for each opponent. 
  • No new game will be started with 30 seconds or less left. 
  • In the event of any 1 v 1 situation where nobody is throwing the ball, we will go to a no-blocking rule that is at the discretion of the referee. 

RUSH 

  • Each game will start with players touching the backline with a side ready countdown. All players can start running after hearing “dodgeball” in the “side ready, side ready, dodgeball” countdown.
  • When the referee starts the game, the team may only go for the balls on their right side of the court.
  • For balls to be thrown during opening rush, balls must be cleared back 5 feet (at the discretion of the refs) before throwing the ball on opening rush. After clearing the 5 feet once, players may then go up to the centerline to throw the ball.
  • If there is a false start, each team will receive their 3 balls and then the game will resume when all balls are cleared.

Throw Clock/BURDEN- Which team has to throw.

  • Once the burden is established, count starts. Burden is established when all balls on the burden side are on the court or held by teammates along the sidelines.
  • If balls are off the court, the throw clock will start when balls are possessed by players of the team that is playing, whether that be playing or shagging. The throw clock will start even if the side without burden is waiting for balls to return to the court.
  • The throw clock starts at 10 seconds counted down at the discretion of the referee
  • Failure of a team not resetting burden before the throw clock reaches zero seconds will forfeit all balls to the opposing team
  • How to determine Burden-
  • The home team has burden first to start games
  • The winner of the game prior will start with burden the next game
  • Burden only resets when the side with burden throws a ball. It does not reset when the defending side throws during the burden countdown. 
  • Burden is determined by
  • Majority of balls (more than 3 on one side) 
  • Majority of players(if both sides have 3 balls)
  • Whoever didnt throw last(if both sides have same amount of balls and players and Team A threw last Team B has to throw)
  • Burden Resets when a ball is thrown by the attacking team

OUTS 

  • I. A player will be deemed out when: 
  • They are hit with a live ball. (Clothing is considered part of the body.) or
  • They are struck by a ball that bounces off a teammate or a ball a teammate possesses or
  • They throw a ball, and it is caught before it hits the floor, the wall, or the ceiling or
  • They step or fall outside of the boundaries including, Sidelines, backlines, and the centerline( HARD LINES, Stepping on a line means you are out) or
  • They drop the ball they are possessing when trying to block a ball thrown at them (see blocking) or 
  • Trapping a ball- a trap is when the ball hits a player and the ground at the same time 

BLOCKING 

  • Players can defend themselves from a ball by blocking with another ball
  • No part of the thrown ball can hit any part of the players’ body (including the hand and fingers)
  • The player must also maintain control of the ball they blocked with
  • A player that drops the balls as a result to the block, will be deemed out.

BOUNDARIES 

  • The dimensions of the court will be the size of the volleyball court. 
  • Players must remain in the dimensions of the court at all times. 
  • Players that have been knocked out or teams that are not playing are expected to retrieve balls. It will be strongly encouraged for active players to always stay within the boundaries. 
  • When returning in from a catch, players are eligible to get hit once they have one point of contact in bounds and must enter through the back line. 
  • A player must make first contact within the boundaries when catching a ball and land in bounds. If the catch is made while falling out of bounds the catch will count and they will be out.
  • Players may only step over the centerline on opening rush

PLAYER CONDUCT

  • Have fun, play fair.
  • Respect the integrity and judgment of the referees
  • Be responsible for your actions and be honest
  • If rules are not followed, Cards can be given out verbally.
  • Players can receive cards at the discretion of the league director for arguments with the referee.
  • Yellow Cards:
  • Arguing with Refs
  • Ignoring Refs calls and staying in the game 
  • Cursing at refs other teams 
  • Throwing a ball at the other team after clearly being out already
  • Red Cards
  • Continued arguing with refs
  • Making contact with opposing team members or refs
  • Continued verbal aggression
  • Penalty for cards
  • Yellow card
  • You are automatically out
  • You cannot play the next game 
  • Your team has to play down a player on the court for the next game during the 10 minute match
  • Red Card (2 yellows) 
  • You are automatically out 
  • You cannot play for the next two ten minute matches 
  • Your team has to play the remainder of the 10 minute match down a player
  • Multiple Red Cards
  • If you get more then one red card during a night you will be asked to leave for the remainder of the night. 
  • Any red card after 3 on the season will result in automatically being asked to leave 
  • If you average one red card a week for an entire season you may be unable to play in future li kick leagues or face league suspension.
  • If a rule is in question, the league director or league coordinator will provide clarification and assist the refs in their call.

 


Meet Our Team

Giancarlo Console
LI Kick

Giancarlo Console Director

First Season: Dodgeball - Winter '20

Favorite Bar Game: Flip Cup

Why I First Joined LI-Kick: to play organized dodgeball on LI which then led to playing 4 other sports and lifelong friendships

Advice for New Players: Just jump right in and don't be shy, just be yourself and have fun. Also, play in our dodgeball league

Proudest LI-Kick Moment: Winning my first season in Glen Cove Kickball as underdogs. #20%

Evan Spector
LI Kick

Evan Spector Coordinator

First Season: Kickball - Sept '21

Why did you join LI-Kick?: To play a coed sport and meet friends.

Favorite sport growing up? Favorite sport to play is soccer, but to watch is football.

What is your day job? I am a Cost Engineer for the US Army Corps of Engineers

Additional Info

Whether this is your first-time playing dodgeball with us or you are a LI-Kick Dodgeball legend I would like to give you a warm welcome. I am excited to start yet another season of LI-Kick Dodgeball.

Each week we will be playing 4 10 minute games. As long as we start on time we will be having pickup every week after our league play games.

Dodgeball is a fast-paced sport with a lot of moving parts, referees are also humans! Please play by the rules and play fair if you know it hit you, but a ref didn't say something go out, if a ref made a call even if you think it is the wrong call respect the call. If you really feel like the refs are bad, I encourage you to step up and ref a game and see how hard it is.

Scoring: During each game you will play as many matches as you can in the timespan. At the end of each match, you get a point for each person you have left on your team. So, if match 1 I had 4 people left, match two my team lost and the other team had 3 people left and we ran out of time my team would have won 4-3.

Rules: We have revamped our rules last season. All our rules are on our website so please go

Reffing and Ball Shagging: With 6 teams at once we should have no problem getting refs. Each court should have two refs at the center line from sitting teams that are playing next on the court. In an ideal world we also will have 2 line refs on each court and players sitting help shag balls for teams that are playing

BAR: Our post game bar will be Dark Horse Tavern in Massapequa Park. Each week you will get bar points for your team by showing up to the bar. We will also be participating in bar games to get additional bar points. Regardless, the bar is a great way to meet league members and give us some good food and drink specials.

Frequently Asked Questions

Nope! Most of our leagues and tournaments allow you to join as a free agent or with one or with a group of friends (while being kept together), in fact, most first time players join this way. When you register we'll ask a few simple questions and we'll do our best to fill out your roster with players like you. That said, the free agent pool for some leagues, like cornhole are limited so your best bet is to join with a friend and form a complete team.

Generally, registration covers the cost of equipment, facility use, umpires/refs and a team shirt. You'll also be given access to the various social events we host and sponsor throughout the year. 

Related Leagues

Upcoming Leagues

Late Fall 2023
Dodgeball League undefined

Monday Nights

November 6th through December 18th games start at 8:00pm - 10:00pm at undefined

Previous Leagues

Summer 2023
Dodgeball League undefined

Monday Nights

July 10th through August 21st games start at 8:00pm - 10:00pm at undefined

Spring 2023
Dodgeball League undefined

Monday Nights

May 1st through June 19th games start at 8:00pm - 10:00pm at undefined

Early Spring 2023
Dodgeball League undefined

Monday Nights

March 20th through April 24th games start at 7:30pm - 10:00pm at undefined